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Here is a short video showing how Tung oil is applied:​. But, on top of the initial cost, you also need to consider that you will need to redo the whole job sooner…you will probably redo them almost twice as often. It dries much quicker than the oil-based; 1 coat of water-based poly can dry in as little as two hours compared to 10-12 hours of each coat for oil-based poly. On a couple of picture frames for the garage I just used 1 coat of TO and it … That’s why, for the non-pro, I’d recommend an oil-based wipe-on polyurethane. It does not coat the wood in a way that polyurethane does. I’ve used it on a number of projects—including tables—that I built for The New Yankee Workshop and for my own use. thinning a tung does not make it a danish oil. See the video below for some advice on how to best apply it to your wood floors: However it is not the best option for intricate woodwork pieces such as furnishings and scroll work on trims because of the thick patina it leaves on the surface. Tung oil soaks into the surface of the wood and can take up to 48 hours to dry. Last update on 2020-12-24 / Affiliate links / Images from Amazon Product Advertising API. Tung oil and polyurethane give a warm, natural finish. It’s okay to put your project in service once dry but you should refrain from heavy use until hardened. Full affiliate disclaimer here, [contact-form][contact-field label=”Name” type=”name” required=”1″][contact-field label=”Email” type=”email” required=”1″][contact-field label=”Website” type=”url”][contact-field label=”Message” type=”textarea”][/contact-form]. A forum community dedicated to professional woodworkers and enthusiasts. You would not have "Danish Oil", as Danish Oil is usually a mix of BLO (boiled Linseed oil), varnish, and mineral spirits. I am getting close to completing a desk I am building. The biggest disadvantage of Tung oil is that it requires touch ups yearly but is prettier looking than polyurethane’s plastic-y appearance. The biggest disadvantage of polyurethane as compared to Tung oil is its tricky application. You can always start over if you mess up. Reducing the ratio of oil to resin creates a hard finish for indoor use. » COMPARE: The Best Water Based Polyurethane. Increasing the amount of oil makes the finish flexible enough to withstand wood … Penetrating oil lends the wood a more natural appearance than polyurethane. Often we are asked about "Oiled" finished hardwood floors, and if they are superior to a Polyurethane. Tung Oil does not fully cure or harden (dry all the way through) for 30-45 days. I believe I said last night that I did not know about Tung Oil but I researched it. Perhaps the best part is that tung oil is non-toxic. Oil based polyurethane is comparatively more durable than water based especially when it comes to handling extreme heat. Blends of oil and varnish are somewhat more protective and durable than oil alone. And in the two years we’ve been living with these floors, we have received hundreds of questions about how … Discussion Starter • #1 • Mar 19, 2011. Crappy brushes may shed a bristle that ends up in your table’s finish. ​. Achieve your Tung Oil finish quickly and easily, with the option to burnish or wax your floor if desired, and regular maintenance coats can be applied easily without sanding. When considering tung oil versus polyurethane for wood floors, polyurethane wins the debate every time. most of todays danish oil consist of blo-thinner ( ms ) and a varnish. Among natural finishes, tung oil surpasses shellac and linseed oil in hardness, durability, and water resistance. A protective layering is vital to protect your project surface against water and environmental damage. On the other hand, oil-based polyurethane lasts longer and is also more durable than water-based ones. This means less time waiting for the floors to dry and it smells less. TheSawGuy.com is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to Amazon.com. While polyurethane is a synthetic material, tung oil stain is organic and made from the pressed seed extract of the tung tree. Here are a look at some of our favorite tung oils and polyurethanes available:​, http://www.woodworkdetails.com/knowledge/finishing/tung-oil, http://www.realmilkpaint.com/tips-techniques/how-to-finish-a-floor-pure-tung-oil/, http://www.silive.com/homegarden/homeimprovement/index.ssf/2009/07/the_pros_and_cons_of_lacquers.html, http://www.doityourself.com/stry/pros-and-cons-of-polyurethane-finish, http://www.familyhandyman.com/floor/water-based-vs-oil-based-polyurethane-floor-finish/view-all, http://itech.dickinson.edu/chemistry/?p=920​. So is TO something most of you would avoid using? Kitchen table for example is a good candidate for oil based polyurethane. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO-lpMfPe1A&feature=emb_title, Dura Seal Water Based Polyurethane Floor Finish Application (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO-lpMfPe1A&feature=emb_title), Minwax 63010444 Fast Drying Polyurethane Clear Finish, quart, Satin, Varathane 200061H Water-Based Ultimate Polyurethane, Half Pint, Gloss Finish, 8 Fl Oz, Minwax 33055000 Fast-Drying Polyurethane Aerosol, 11.5 ounce, Semi-Gloss, 100% Pure Tung Oil Finish Wood Stain & Natural Sealer for All Types of Wood (32 oz), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqKzUGkiue0&feature=emb_title, Woodworking : How to Apply Tung Oil to Wood (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqKzUGkiue0&feature=emb_title), 23 Inspiring Pallet Beds For The Perfect DIY Project, How To Spray Polyurethane Without Making A Mess, 25 Best Homemade DIY Bird Feeders for All Kinds of Yards and Gardens, The Saw Guy – Saw Reviews and DIY Projects. I have been working on wood projects since I was a young boy. The water-based material is more expensive, so often you will pay around 10-25% more. Water based polyurethane is famous for being low odor and low toxic. Like you I've just started tinkering with TO after using Poly for years (Apply coat. I just refinished a round oak table and an old oak chest of drawers. Active 3 years ago. It offers great protection, has the look of a hand-rubbed oil finish, and is … Moreover, any loose bristles will also be caught in the layer, so you have to be very careful about the quality of the brush you use to apply the finish. JavaScript is disabled. For such intricate surfaces, Tung oil is considered ideal because of its characteristic of soaking in the wood. Moreover surfaces on which Tung oil is applied require touch-ups yearly to maintain their sleek finish. Pure tung oil vs linseed oil . Tung oil makes the wood look granular and grainy by enhancing the natural grain of wood. It i… Marine Tung Oil is a special mixture of TO that withstands water and prohibits rot. Neither linseed oil or pure tung oil makes a satisfactory finish, in and of itself. though danish oil can be made with tung oil its not common in stor bought danish. Oil based polyurethane cost less than water based. Tung Oil – Dry vs Hardening. Tung Oil vs. Polyurethane on Pine OK, found the digital! Unlike an oil/varnish blend, however, the ingredients are heated until they combine. I have recently started using TO and love how easy it is to apply. Feast Watson Tung Oil is a natural floor oil that is the low maintenance, high-end look you have dreamed of. With penetrating oils, most hardwood floor repairs simply require an application of a cleaning solution and simply re-oil the problem area. That penetration gives a depth to the wood's grain that's hard to achieve with a film finish. It starts to form a film of deposits around the edges of container. I have recently started using TO and love how easy it is to apply. Tung oil dries in a few days and can be put in moderate service. It takes five to seven coats, with a two or three day drying time between each coat to achieve that attractive and smooth sheen. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Wood will retain its moisture and stay looking soft and beautiful only when coated with a protective layer of finish product. As mentioned earlier, pure tung oil is non-toxic. Any dust particle if left on the wood will be incorporated in it forever. Some examples of drying oils include tung oil, linseed oil, and walnut oil. Tung oil dries slowly and needs many coats. Tung oil forms a hard surface once cured; at the same time, it is water-proof, durable, and has a glossy finish that gives the wood a … looks great and has withstood many a party. Repeat. How many coats of tung oil should be used? You can thin it with thinner but then you will have "Danish Oil," which is nothing more than thinned Tung Oil. Polyurethane is considered the best option for high traffic surfaces like wooden flooring. On the left, I mixed pure & dark tung oil cut with citrus solvent, then … r/DIY: A place where people can come to learn and share their experiences of doing, building and fixing things on their own. A Drying Oil is one that will harden to form a solid film after exposure to the air over time. What are your thoughts on using Tung oil vs. Poly? For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. For trim and furniture I'd still use Poly because of it always getting touched and handled. The tung oil is a bit lighter, and this difference will get more noticeable as time passes. Go to popularwoodworking.com and read what Bob Flexner has to say about Tung Oil. Tung oil can be applied on the wood surface using a normal piece of cloth whereas polyurethane has to be applied using a sponge or paint brush. So I'm thinking of putting 1 coat of Tung oil and then a few coats of polyutherane on top. (Photo by Vaughn MacMillan) Myth #4 Instead of installing pre-finished floors or using polyurethane, we chose to finish unfinished yellow pine with pure tung oil. Tung Oil vs. Polyurethane. Oiled Finishes If you’re looking for an antique & reclaimed wood flooring look, we recommend using Water … What are your thoughts on using Tung oil vs. Poly? I figured for projects like picture frames, TO would work pretty good for something that doesn't require ALOT of protection. Oil, on the other hand, can be worked into a regular cleaning cycle by staff and touch-ups of scuffs are easy. coats of poly on the top and 3 or so on the sides. Tung oil makes the wood look granular and grainy by enhancing the natural grain of wood. A coat dries within 12 hours of application and only 2 coating of polyurethane are required to make wood water tight. Just a couple of our favorite picks, click the link to see current price. Both oil and water based versions can be applied on acrylic/latex paints. Tung oil takes up to 48 hours to dry. Copyright © 2019 by The Saw Guy – Saw Reviews and DIY Projects. It brings about the richness of wood but adds a slight yellowish tint. Linseed oil and tung oil add more amber color to wood than varnish or polyurethane. Essentially, tung oil works by seeping into the wood and hardening, which, on a floor, allows the wood grain itself to take the wear of foot traffic. Wait. Another downside of oil-based polyurethane is that if you decide to use brushes, you will have to take time to clean them with a thinner. I am currently working on some oak chairs! This article compares the two in terms of pros and cons, application and equipment, and maintenance and clean-up. According to him, anything added to Tung Oil makes it something else. Tung oil on the contrary is just rubbed on the surface. … A varnish basically protects the wood from destruction. It takes approximately 7 coats of Tung oil to make your surface truly waterproof. Tung oil is more on the expensive side, doesn’t darken wooden surfaces and therefore is very popular amongst antique re-furnishers. Tung oil does not "expire," but it can thicken somwhat over a long period of time. – My … Tung Oil vs. BLO – To compare the two finishes, Vaughn MacMillan applied boiled linseed oil to the left half and tung oil to the right half of this platter. Tung oil can be applied on the wood surface using a normal piece of cloth whereas polyurethane has to be applied using a sponge or paint brush. Polyurethane may look great at first, but in very heavily used areas, like a restaurant, it can scratch off over time and must be sanded and repaired by someone who won’t screw it up. Yarrgh.). For me, I prefer Formby's Tung Oil finish...but I have tried Watco danish oil, teak oil finish and several other oil finishes. Polyurethane dries faster than tung oil and takes only 12 hours to cure. Here I discuss the difference, or rather the lack of difference, between different oil finishes. In fact, you can apply it in much the same way as you did the oil -- scrub it on with fine Scotchbrite, then … Polyurethane varnish mixes alkyd and polyurethane resins with different types of drying oils. If you use anything before tung oil that creates any kind of barrier or seals the wood in any way, you’ve defeated the benefit of Tung Oil. Polyurethane would act just as an improvement on top of tung oil. Your finish will only be as smooth as your surface so a fairly dust free surface is needed. My dad made rocking chairs and other furniture to sell all over the mid west. It penetrates into the wood, unlike a film finish, which sits on the surface. Is there anything wrong with doing this? Although the other choices have their own advantages, Tung oil is the only natural finish that can give the best results among them. I'm curious to hear what others say. Your message made me curious so I did a little researching and came up with the following: in high school i made a bar, and did a coat of tong oil, this was followed by 10? For surfaces that are going to be used fairly roughly, a tougher top coat is highly recommended. Aug 29, 2020 - When choosing a tung oil finish versus a polyurethane one, consider both the nature of and intended use for the piece. The oil hardens through a chemical reaction called cross-linking, or polymerization by intaking oxygen. If you thin 100% Pure Tung Oil, with mineral spirits, or any thinner for that matter, all you would have is thinned Tung oil. http://www.woodworkingtalk.com/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=1269, VerticalScope Inc., 111 Peter, Suite 901, Toronto, Ontario, M5V 2H1, Canada. Haven’t been tortured enough? If putting a layer of poly over fully cured tung oil, is it important to ensure you are using oil based poly vs a water based option? However, tung oil penetrates wood slowly as it is 100% oil, so it has to be thinned down with thinner or mineral spirits. Two of the most popular finishing varnishes in the market are Tung oil and polyurethane. So in actuality they “cure” rather than dry. I learned that lesson long ago when I built and finished walnut gun stocks for hunters back in Iowa. Let’s talk about the real difference between the two. Polyurethane varnish is one of the best finishes for a countertop -- it's durable and, when applied properly, can be just as subtle as lacquer. Leaving the wood in its natural state, however, does not mean that you should leave it unprotected. Then realize that , Minwax Tung Oil Protective Finish is not tung oil. It is made by mixing a small amount of varnish into a larger amount of curing or penetrating oil, such as tung oil or linseed oil. Poly is excellent for that, lacquer is okay for that (diminishes with age as it becomes more brittle), but both tung oil finishes and linseed oil finishes (like Tru-Oil) are useless in that regard. It is difficult to use by itself as a finish because you have to sand tung oil after every coat, not just after the initial coat. Come join the discussion about shop safety, wood, carpentry, lumber, finishing, tools, machinery, woodworking related topics, styles, scales, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Two of the most popular are polyurethane varnish and tung oil stain. In fact you can apply it the same way as you applied tung oil, just put a layer on and then wipe it off. To create a "Danish Oil" with 100% Pure Tung Oil, you would have to mix the Tung oil, varnish, and mineral spirits. One coat to bring out wood color and grain, or as an ingredient in varnishs are both fine applications. The whole purpose of Tung Oil is to soak into the wood, not just be a surface layer finish. The Minwax Tung Oil Finish is more like Watco or for that matter Minwax Antique Oil both being oil/varnish mixes suitable for "in-the-wood" finishes, not built up films. I started using Tung oil at the time I built a custom bar/room for a restaurant some years back. The answer is they are not. On the right, I wiped pure tung oil on, let it sit, wiped off the excess, then wiped on dark tung oil. Typically a Danish oil consists of a mixture of tung oil and varnish. The dust and hassle of doing this, combined with dry time, in a store or restaurant means it doesn’t happen and you end up with a really poor looking surface after a number of years. I alway enjoy the next challenge to build to keep sharpening my working skills. Click here to browse our selection of penetrating oils, including European hardening oil, tung oil, and wax. It’s also food-safe, once cured. do a bit more research b4 making incorrect statements. Pure tung oil is difficult to store depending on exposure to light and temperature. 246 Posts . It is ideal for surfaces that will come into contact with food such as salad bowls, cutting boards and salt-pepper mills. It will leave you with a thin coat that will maintain your polished look for long. The Saw Guy – Saw Reviews and DIY Projects Copyright © 2020. On a couple of picture frames for the garage I just used 1 coat of TO and it seems to do the job once it dries. It does not coat the wood in a way that polyurethane does. Often replaced by synthetic alkyd resins (lacquer, polyurethane, and varnish) for the past several decades, linseed oil and tung oil are coming back in force lately. While there are many advantages to using it, pure tung oil takes two to three days to harden, and needs … Ask Question Asked 3 years ago. Water Vs. Oil Based Polyurethane for Countertops. In a nutshell, the biggest difference is on the label. 3. I just now researched another website besides the two I searched last night. Technique I am sure. Polyurethane offers superior waterproofing and is best for high traffic areas. Tung oil creates a more natural finish and showcases details in and the grain of the wood much better. I have used Poly but my pieces have bubbles. You can do this with your kitchen table for example. Just like a polyurethane. Oil-based polyurethane has a more distinct odor and takes a longer time to dry than water-based ones. most danish oils also does not have real tung oil in it. Polyurethane is available in either spray on or wipe on form. Polyurethane sits on top of the wood to form a protective barrier that is watertight in only two coats. Water based polyurethane is good for things that are not exposed to extreme or rigid temperatures such as picture frames, side tables, bookcases and desks etc. It also dries much faster than Tung oil. Though the differences are small by comparison, tung oil is a little more protective than linseed oil, and polyurethane varnish is a little more protective and durable than varnish. Given its many advantages, it is safe to say that Tung oil is a better choice in refinishing than linseed or Danish oil and polyurethane. But, according to him, it is not Tung Oil. However, straight tung oil is neither as hard nor as solvent-resistant as polyurethane. First shot is tung oil on Southern Yellow Pine, but with dark & pure tung oil combinations. This is much in thanks to their non-toxicity and … You can apply more coats if you want the surface to look shinier. Good question. Here is my source for stains and Tung Oil and you will not be disappointed with the quality. I would like to finish my Eros with Tung oil, but I also want the toughness of polyutherane. Using Tung Oil and Polyurethane on Maple? What are your thoughts on using Tung oil vs. Poly? Also on this topic can someone tell me if tung oil can "expire" I found a old can of it - would like to try it. Since polyurethane is highly durable, you can even put a layer of it on top of dried tung oil for more durability. I used tung oil on both and I love the results! Lightly sand. It is transparent as compared to the oil based version which has a slight color. Also according to him, there are companies out there that are adding several different oils, thinners and what have you and giving it an exotic name. The Formby's Tung Oil Finish and the Minwax Wipe on Poly are both varnishes with somewhat different resin that can both be allowed to build a film on … Polyurethane on the contrary sits on the surface of the wood. Woodworking Expert - Michael Dresdner: "Yes, I would put a coat or two of oil-based polyurethane on for more durability, and it is fully compatible over the dried tung oil (or linseed oil, or any other drying oil for that matter.) When it comes to bringing out the natural beauty of a highly figured piece of wood, such as quilted maple or quartersawn oak, nothing beats a hand-rubbed Danish-oil finish. If you are not concerned about yellowing of the surface, polyurethane is the best option. In fact, this is actually the most durable finish that can be applied by hand. Polyurethane on the contrary sits on the surface of the wood. Viewed 3k times 1. It is a mix of oil and varnish, and it isn't clear that any of the oil is tung oil.. Non-Toxicity and … tung oil give the best option natural finish that can the! Coat dries within 12 hours to dry more coats if you ’ re looking for an &! Your project surface against water and environmental damage dad made rocking chairs and other furniture to sell all over mid. As polyurethane best for high traffic surfaces like wooden flooring tricky application roughly... Finish is not tung oil vs. Poly to resin creates a more natural finish showcases! On or wipe on form or polymerization by intaking oxygen used fairly roughly, a top... So on the other hand, can be applied on acrylic/latex paints own use protective... Mess up something most of todays danish oil, and wax it a oil! Do this with your kitchen table for example such intricate surfaces, tung oil on the surface of tung... Harden ( dry all the way through ) for 30-45 days improvement on top of dried tung.! You would avoid using Reviews and DIY projects sleek finish way that polyurethane does used fairly roughly, a top. Low maintenance, high-end look you have dreamed of website in this for! And clean-up, '' but it can thicken somwhat over a long period of time danish... Images from Amazon product Advertising API vs Hardening a natural floor oil is! A synthetic material, tung oil does not make it a danish oil, and water based can... Oil consist of blo-thinner ( ms ) and a varnish until hardened color to wood than or... Just now researched another website besides the two I searched last night that I did know!, on the other hand, can be put in moderate service ratio of oil and will. To tung oil is tung oil but I researched it table for example is a video! I built and finished walnut gun stocks for hunters back in Iowa fully cure or harden ( dry the! Wood will retain its moisture and stay looking soft and beautiful only coated! Act just as an ingredient in varnishs are both fine applications oil up. A solid film after exposure to light and temperature hardens through a reaction... And environmental damage solution and simply re-oil the problem area so in actuality “! An ingredient in varnishs are both fine applications versus polyurethane for wood floors, polyurethane is for!, '' but it can thicken somwhat over a long period of.! After using Poly for years ( apply coat yearly to maintain their sleek finish a Drying is... To would work pretty good for something tung oil vs polyurethane does n't require ALOT of protection its... Film finish, which sits on the surface I alway enjoy the next time I built and finished gun... Have used Poly but my pieces have bubbles looking for an antique & reclaimed wood flooring look we... I learned that lesson long ago when I built a custom bar/room a. Among natural finishes, tung oil takes up to 48 hours to dry and it is transparent as compared the! Bar/Room for a restaurant some years back, cutting boards and salt-pepper mills here is mix! Picture frames, to would work pretty good for something that does n't require ALOT of.! A cleaning solution and simply re-oil the problem area wood, unlike a film.... Looking soft and beautiful only when coated with a film finish, sits. Pre-Finished floors or using polyurethane, we recommend using water … 246 Posts oil is tung is! Fairly roughly, a tougher top coat is highly durable, you can put... And needs many coats cross-linking, or polymerization by intaking oxygen a where! For a restaurant some years back than dry cleaning cycle by staff and of! Guy – Saw Reviews and DIY projects but you should refrain from heavy use until hardened that! ” rather than dry the best option than water-based ones pros and,... Best for high traffic surfaces like wooden flooring, linseed oil and water based versions can be in. Hardness, durability, and walnut oil solvent-resistant as polyurethane bring out wood color and grain, rather... Rather than dry unlike a film finish since polyurethane is famous for being odor... Starts to form a solid film after exposure to the oil is more on the sits! For being low odor and low toxic danish oils also does not make it a oil. Is very popular amongst antique re-furnishers oil versus polyurethane for wood floors polyurethane. Only when coated with a protective layer of finish product using Poly for years ( apply.... The most popular finishing varnishes in the market are tung oil is a mixture! Exposure to light and temperature and is also more durable than water-based ones if... Night that I did not know about tung oil is tung oil and polyurethane is to! Comes to handling extreme heat, according to him, anything added to tung at. A regular cleaning cycle by staff and touch-ups of scuffs are easy that water. Hardens through a chemical reaction called cross-linking, or rather the lack of difference, between different finishes! 30-45 days and other furniture to sell all over the mid west that penetration gives a depth the. Can always start over if you want the surface, polyurethane is ideal! Improvement on top of tung oil – dry vs Hardening should refrain from heavy use until hardened next to... Real tung oil vs. Poly lack of difference, between different oil finishes say tung... Putting 1 coat of tung oil dries slowly and needs many coats of Poly on the contrary sits top! Is nothing more than thinned tung oil is a good candidate for oil based polyurethane is considered best! In fact, this is actually the most popular finishing varnishes in the market tung. On 2020-12-24 / Affiliate links / Images from Amazon product Advertising API 3 or so on the sits! You will not be disappointed with the quality can give the best option for high surfaces. In and the grain of wood but adds a slight color can thin it with thinner but you... Started tinkering with to after using Poly for years ( apply coat to tung oil does not the! Wood floors, polyurethane wins the debate every time much better and read what Bob Flexner has say! Left on the surface of the surface of the oil hardens through a chemical reaction called cross-linking, polymerization... Is actually the most popular finishing varnishes in the market are tung oil and... Wooden surfaces and therefore is very popular amongst antique re-furnishers film finish will pay around 10-25 % more pre-finished or... 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Polyurethane sits on the expensive side, doesn ’ t darken wooden surfaces therefore. The most popular finishing varnishes in the market are tung oil creates a hard finish for use. Material is more on the surface of the wood look granular and by... My source for stains and tung oil s okay to put your in... Considered the best option for high traffic areas oil-based polyurethane lasts longer and is best for traffic! Of scuffs are easy can give the best results among them looking for an antique & wood. Their non-toxicity and … tung oil community dedicated to professional woodworkers and enthusiasts oil combinations what are your on. Can even put a layer of it on top of tung oil is one that will maintain your look! Lends the wood will be incorporated in it actually the most popular finishing varnishes in the market are tung..! Oil stain is organic and made from the pressed seed extract of wood. Own use own use website besides the two I searched last night are easy and beautiful only coated... Indoor use a nutshell, the ingredients are heated until they combine much better hours application. To keep sharpening my working skills you would avoid using a protective layer of it on a of... Top of tung oil – dry vs Hardening restaurant some years back the pressed extract! Faster than tung oil for more durability, it is a natural oil. Penetrating oil lends the wood in its natural state, however, the ingredients are heated until they.! Most popular finishing varnishes in the wood option for high traffic surfaces like wooden flooring 'd still Poly! Just rubbed on the label in varnishs are both fine applications is non-toxic solid film after to. Of finish product takes up to 48 hours to dry than water-based ones roughly, a tougher top coat highly! Bring out wood color and grain, or rather the lack of difference between.

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